I'm so sorry I haven't sent a response/discussion about beliefs over here yet; RL has been crazy today and keeping up with the fandom mess isn't easy either.

I can state in advance though that you've already won the wank for comparing Orlando Bloom to Jesus and having brought up the Nazis, lol *g*

Oh but it was so much fun, how could I resist? Seriously though I'd forgotten they were talking about Jesus rather than God, in my mind I was comparing Orlando to God himself. (If I'm running for wank I might as well go the whole hog.) Considering that particular version of God is played by Alanis Morisette I... Actually, I have no idea what I was thinking after all. I was going to quote the dialogue anyway and then I was playing around with it. The words just seemed to fit. It amused me.

The Nazi reference was a throwaway point that I'm not really sure fits the rest of the post. It's more to do with my own frustration at what I saw as a badly thought-out comment.

Looking forward to hearing from you when life settles down, no doubt I'll still be here. Unless I'm to be hunted down by rabid fangirls for comparing Orlando to Alanis Morisette, by Christians for comparing him to Jesus, and by all the other religions for comparing him to the Almighty. I'll have to be post-humously crowned.

I hope you’ll forgive me for the lengthy responses (uber-wanky just by virtue of the length), but this is a discussion I don’t want to participate in in a half-assed manner. I felt the need to respond to this post first, especially the part about beliefs, before posting my perceptions of Viggo/Orli believers. You can think of my two responses as companion pieces.

At any rate, there were lots of very interesting points that I agree with. I was nodding my head through the whole Two Parts of Fandom section.

I have a general observation about you and blank spaces, however, that I’m not sure I’ve got it quite right. Are you suggesting that it’s ok to fill them in for fictional purposes, but not to fill in the blank spaces in real people’s lives?

We certainly don’t know celebrities, and many RPSers will disclaim that they believe that, from their observations, their representation of a real person is decently accurate in the aspects they choose to emphasize – but that they realize that it’s just their perception of the person and less than half the story. A lot of these people seem to be the ones who think the people they write about are ‘angels.’ Then, there are just as many and more who will say that they don’t claim to have any idea of what the actor is really like, so they are only projecting qualities they think the actor has onto said actor so that the purposes of their story are suited. Where the problem comes in, I think (like you said about people needing to read their own disclaimers), is when people don’t have a healthy perspective on how they’re writing a person, why they are writing them that way, and what effect their portrayal is having on other people. It’s the effect on other people that concerns me more than their own rose-tinted view of the world, however. But, you know, most fictional portrayals, even if they have a theory about real life behind them, aren’t hurting anyone.

You said about filling in spaces, “It's an automatic and necessary response, harmless in most cases…. It's personal taste, it's a game, a bit of fun, I don't take it seriously.”
I definitely see it as inevitable and necessary (humans are innately curious creatures); we want to try and understand every aspect of our world - which includes the people we care about, and a lot of fans really adore their chosen actors in a deeply personal way. It’s inevitable too, I think, that because they care, people are going to take their ideas of actors seriously. Should they care that much about people they don’t know? Err, well, I don’t know. My first thought, however, is that the entertainment industry and the stars themselves court their fans’ love for actors as people. So, I can’t really blame the fans here for wanting to know about their favorite actors (and by extension, drawing conclusions), since it is encouraged, and also since everyone everyday fills in the blanks about other people they see – that’s just part of our nature, one that doesn’t get much fuss made over it unless unfair conclusions are drawn. Should they care that much that they loose perspective and become rabid and overbearingly push their beliefs on others? Definitely not. As you say, there’s no need for it.

However, I’m not really sure I see anything harmful in most of the conclusions that are drawn about actors, and I definitely think that factual evidence can be used to draw legitimate conclusions in many cases; that’s the essence of science, after all, which can be applied to people. But once again, it’s all about not loosing perspective. Does losing it cause problems? Hell yeah. Case in point, the wars that get started between rival groups over differing viewpoints and the inability to respect others’ opinions.

Onto the “Make Love Not Fandom War” section. I, and everyone else who has commented (save yourself) do not think it is soo silly. I must here rehash what I have already said in other places. Of course people are not always going to get along, and of course factions and wars will develop in fandom (as anywhere, because of the nature of man and society). However, if we are to grow as individuals and as a society, there is some nobility in attempting to improve ourselves and our world, even (or especially) if we know our efforts are doomed to failure. That is the essence of every movement for peace that has ever been, so I think the core idea of a Love-In is validated by precedent.

Despite knowing how things will inevitably be, I still do not think it is too much to ask, however, that in a community built around the subject of homosexuality that we at least try to be adult enough to respect each other or at least tolerate other people different from ourselves. Do I really think the idea of creating a place where everyone’s invited to come and just be silly together would work? No, not really, because my opinion of fandom is soo low at this point; fans as a whole don’t seem to be the most mature people in the world. But it couldn’t hurt, and maybe, just maybe, I might be surprised.

On to beliefs, the most important section to me, as this is the one that has the most direct bearing on the conflict precipitating this discussion.

I should like to think that most of what you said about beliefs is plain common sense to most people. To summarize, some beliefs are good (like self-esteem), some beliefs are bad (like Nazis ;) but most fall somewhere in the middle. I would add that what determines their value is what good they do for the individual who holds them, and emphasize that the rightness or wrongness of them lies not so much in the beliefs themselves but in the way the individual chooses to use them.

It is this in-between space that the current conflict over beliefs is about. Having said what I did about them, it concerns me to see that, of all the concepts being thrown around right now, the one I am seeing delegitimatized the most is the idea of beliefs (and a certain belief in particular). I say again, the evil is not in the belief itself, but in the individual who uses it improperly. In my opinion, the focus of the entire conflict is on the wrong subject. It should be on the few harmful believers, not the harmless belief itself, and to say that people should not hold that belief because it is wrong or dangerous, or to put it down, is therefore groundless and lacks understanding.

Similarly, cavalier attitudes towards the terms “hatred,” “tolerance,” “generalization,” “psychosis,” and “misogyny” shift the focus away from these very real issues in this conflict and effectively dismisses them. A generalized statement was issued calling all harmless believers (along with the not so harmless ones) hurtful names, and indeed it was encouraged that these believers be actively bashed and intimidated with the fear that they will lose friends if they “come out” about their beliefs or do not change them. In my opinion, that is misguided hatred and intolerance. And this is what the conflict is really about. It does one well to remember that.

I don't think fandom needed beliefs.

I have to agree with you there, but we all know that, even if they’re just wanking by themselves, many people are going to take fandom too seriously at one point or another or about one particular subject (we’re doing it now). I believe you were earlier telling me about it being pointless to try and change the inevitable ;)

Why would anybody need to believe that Viggo and Orlando are in a relationship of a romantic nature?

And that is the subject of my next post, what I was asked to come here about. You’ll see why I’m sympathetic there :)

Well, it’s been an interesting conversation so far; I hope you feel you’ve gotten something out of it, because I certainly have. Look forward to hearing more from you. *hugs*

Thank you so much for replying! Going to reread through very carefully and respond to some of your points. Suffice it to say that I agree with an awful lot of what you're saying, and am delighted to have found someone to discuss this with properly.

Thank you again, and I'll get back to you.

Note: This ramble should be read in conjunction with my previous post, specifically with my attitude toward beliefs. It should also be kept in mind that I’m wanking hard here. Lastly, I’m going to gratuitously throw around the terms “belief,” “need,” “romance,” and “idealism” because I don’t think they are dirty words.

Beautiful Dreamers: Why I Want to Believe in Viggo/Orlando

For those of you along for the ride, Missiedith has been so open-minded as to be interested in better understanding perceptions of V/O believers other than her own, and also to invite me over to talk about the way in which people who believe that Viggo and Orlando are lovers in real life see their belief. At M’s request (and to my relief), I will not be going into the specific “evidence” for the couple. I will not be discussing Kate either, however, as that subject has been discussed at great length elsewhere, and no one theory about ViggOrlians’ relationship to her fits everyone. Rather, I’m here to touch on the idea of belief, what the belief in V/O is about, and most importantly, what the belief says about the individual who holds it. I do, however, have to preface this little essay with the statement that I might not be the best person to represent these people and would hate to do more damage than good, so I’ll ask someone more qualified to come over and correct me or add ideas I missed; I’m not actually a true believer. I just wish I were.

First of all, where does this belief come from? I don’t know entirely; it’s complicated. Still, let me expound on an equation that I saw as illustrating the very basic development of the belief. In a nutshell: evidence + love/profound attachment to actors + particularly well-developed sense of romance and idealism = happy belief. Evidence, of course, is necessary first. Love of the actors must also be involved or else one simply will not care enough to feel as strongly as to be able to believe, as opposed to merely theorizing. Lastly, it is my personal opinion that to hold this particular belief in V/O requires a strong sense of romance and idealism; they are the hallmarks of the V/O community.

Why require these? Because of what V/O represents, which ties into the ideas of “need” and “want.” Viggo/Orli (and similarly, Aragorn/Legolas) are more often than not portrayed in ways that idealize their love and suggest its purity. With one or two possible exceptions, this tendency is more prevalent in these pairings than in any others. It happens that Vig and Orli and Aragorn and Legolas are something of romantic figures simply as they are, and one adds the difficulties inherent in any romance between them, of which there are sub textual suggestions, they become even more so. It is thus natural that these pairings should attract romantic individuals (or sappy, depending on how one sees it), which is actually how most V/O and A/L shippers describe themselves and the reason they give as their primary attraction to the pairings.

Romance is by its very nature a kind of ideal in love with a certain magical quality to it, and it takes an optimistic kind of person to believe that it is not just something one reads about in books. Here I am going out on a shaky limb in presuming to speak for or get inside anybody else’s head (I only know for certain that this is how I see my relation to the belief), but in my personal armchair psychoanalysis, I see the desire to read and write idealistic, pure love and to believe in such a love in real life as speaking to a want, or even a need in some cases, to believe in love, not love as it is, but love as it should be – maybe love as it can be. There’s an innocent hopefulness to this, and a kind of wistful envy from those of us who are cynics but who can still appreciate where this impulse to believe comes from.

Even though I don’t really believe (factual evidence dragging me down), I wouldn’t want to encourage people who do to give up the wonderful possibilities they see; it makes them very, very happy, and for the most part, they’re not hurting anyone with their belief.

In the end, perhaps it doesn’t matter whether their conclusions about Viggo and Orlando are right or wrong, for “A kiss may not be the truth, but it’s what we wish were true.”

And that, I think, is a beautiful thought.